Dimensions in Ministry

Mike Feazell: Curtis, it’s great to have you here.

Curtis May: It’s great to be here, Mike.

MF: Well, there’s a lot we’re going to talk about today. Let’s begin by just telling us about the reconciliation ministries that you’re involved with.

CM: Oh, great. It’s called the Office of Reconciliation and Mediation, Spiritual Mediation, and we mediate with people who have problems. We do reconciliation, which means to bring people together. Mending Broken Relationships is the title of our book, that’s what we try to do. And it doesn’t matter what kind of conflict or broken relationship, we try to deal with any that comes our way.

MF: Let’s start with reconciliation, and then we’ll talk about spiritual mediation. What does it look like? In other words, what is being reconciled, who is looking for reconciliation? You have to have both parties looking to do it, I presume, but how does that work with your ministry? What do you do? How do people get in contact with you? And what are some of the stories you can tell without breaking any confidences and so on.

CM: Great. You left me a lot of space to be able to speak. There are all kinds of splendid relationships in the world, as you know. Denominational, internal church conflicts, inter-church conflict, police and community, companies, just all kinds of... Anywhere there’s a relationship, it can be broken, and it has been broken, and we’ve been asked to help to put them back together through our ministry. For the last decade or so, we’ve been working with the Pasadena Police Department and the community. We’ve worked in the school system in Pasadena and other places as well. Like you said, not everybody’s going to ask for help; those who badly need it won’t ask for it.

MF: How did you get involved with the police department? Did they hear about the organization, or how did it come to pass that the request came about to get involved between Pasadena Police and you?

CM: Interesting question. My son is a police officer in Pasadena. And when I was pastoring at the Ambassador Auditorium in Pasadena, one of the lieutenants talked with my son who worked with him, and they found out that I’m a pastor. Well, they were having all kinds of conflict. About five or six young people of color had been shot and killed by the police in Pasadena. Now the right or wrong of those people who were shot, I’m not saying, but it was a problem.

MF: Between the community and the police department.

CM: The community and the police department, right. And they saw the need to reach out and try to un-tarnish the name of the Pasadena Police Department. So then the chief of police came and asked me if he could take me to lunch along with my son. And I said yes. His name is Bernard Melekian. He took us to lunch and he asked, “Can I speak in your church?” I asked, “What would you talk about?” He said, “I would talk about the Centurion Servant and the humility shown there, and I would like to see that among my police officers.” We talked further, and I decided to let him do it. He gave a tremendous message, about a 40-minute message, on the Centurion Servant.

He showed himself to be a humble man. I saw him at a funeral, a memorial service for a police officer who had been killed, and while the priest was praying, he got on his knees in front of all of his officers during the prayer. A humble man. So I said, “I think I can work with him.” After he spoke, I went to his office, I prayed with him and found out that he was very open to reconciliation work, to my ideas about how to go about settling some of the problems.

From then on, we got together with a group of people from different ethnic groups, different denominations, the Western Justice Center Foundation joined us, some of the other groups out there, and we formed a team and began to have dialogue between the police and the community. We drew guidelines on how to discuss this conflict. Everybody was in agreement on reaching out gently and kindly and trying to find out as much as we could about what the problems were and how can we take steps to resolve them. That’s how it got started.

MF: So you focus a lot on understanding the viewpoint of each other.

CM: Yes.

MF: And just discussions, getting to know one another, and those principles come across into church conflicts, too. What are some of the kinds of conflicts you have in churches that have asked you to come and help find reconciliation?

CM: Some of the conflicts are just the pastor and maybe the other leadership having trouble with some of the lay members. Some of the lay members are having trouble with them, and they’re just at a stalemate and they can’t seem to resolve their issues. We’ve been able to sit down and talk with both the leadership and some of the membership to talk about how can we get together. The first step we take is we must be willing on both sides to acknowledge the issues.

MF: So you have to get together with leaders from both sides to talk about whether this is worth doing, and whether this is going to work.

CM: And whether or not they will get together.

MF: Yeah. Because it sounds kind of like Judge Judy or something — they have to agree...

CM: Have to agree to get together. They have to agree to work on the problem, otherwise there’s no reconciliation.

MF: Have you had situations where they’ve taken that first step but they haven’t been willing to go further?

CM: Yes, we’ve had people just say, “I don’t think I want to go down that road.” Yes. Because once they start talking about what it takes and acknowledgment of the issue, which may incriminate one group, they will just not want to go down that road. But when they’re pretty open and when we can do a seminar and we’re not talking specifically about any particular group; we’re saying that you’re having conflicts, let’s just do a full-church seminar and not put anybody on the spot.

MF: About conflicts in general.

CM: In general. That’s the best way we find that works. Step number one is to get people to acknowledge that there is a problem, what the problem is. Step number two is being willing to change. Okay, we know where the problems are...

MF: Each side would usually have a slightly different perspective on what the problem is.

CM: That’s right. Yes. But then, are we willing to change and make things better, whatever it takes? You get them that far and then the third step is okay, the change means building a relationship enough to be able to resolve these issues no matter who was right and no matter who was wrong. It’s not a matter of who is right or wrong right now, it’s a matter of do we want to solve this problem? If we do, we can, because now let’s fellowship in the name of Jesus because he is our reconciler. So let’s get together, let’s have dinners together, let’s have lunch together, whatever it takes, sit down and talk about these issues. Talk through it over a meal. That’s the third step.

The fourth step is restoration. If I’ve wronged you in some way that’s hurt you, am I willing to restore the damage by first of all maybe just apologizing? That may be all it takes. Anything short of those four steps I don’t think would work. People have to be willing.

Another example...the chief of Pasadena apologized to the city residents for any bad things the police had done. He said there had been some bad things because, he said, “We’re human. When we go out on the street we carry our prejudices with us – all our biases in our minds and in our hearts.”

But he tells his officers to take a look at their biases and try to act as fairly as you can when you go out there. Be a good representative of this department. He was willing to stand behind that, and that’s why it worked. I think that those steps work anywhere if people are willing to do it. I’m so amazed and so excited about the fact that Grace Communion International members have been willing to do that more frequently than any other fellowship that I’ve dealt with. Of course that might be because I’m a part of it and they know me, but it’s been exciting to see people change, to see people get up and apologize and see other people weep, weep as they are released of their pain. It’s like wow, I never would have expected this to happen, but I’m so glad it did.

MF: What is behind this power that’s in an apology, both for the person giving it on behalf of a group, and those who are receiving or hearing it? What’s going on?

CM: That’s a great question. I used to think well, there’s no connection. But there is a connection. I mean, just to have somebody... John Dawson is great on this, he’s one of my mentors. He is the president of Youth with a Mission and also the International Reconciliation Coalition. He’s been over to Spain having them address the inquisition – the Christians and the Jews and the tortured Jews and all that. And they apologized to the Jews. He said the healing that took place was unbelievable. For something that happened in the 16th century to have that kind of impact in the 21st century is just amazing.

I was not really concerned about getting any kind of reparation, any kind of apology or anything from slavery as the descendant of a slave. But I was absolutely stunned at the impact that apology had on me — that a white person would stand up and stand in the gap and say, “Look, I didn’t do this, but I apologize on behalf of those who did.” And it did make a difference to me. I didn’t realize it would. But somebody, and John Dawson said, when somebody stands up and says on behalf of these people who look like me, we wronged you, I want to stand and apologize to you, it never should have happened to you, there’s an impact there that I didn’t even know was there. I felt, like, I was over all that stuff.

When that happened with the Archbishop, it’s just, like, a tremendous breath of fresh air, like a glass of cold water. It’s just like, he didn’t have to do that, but he did. Chief Melekian transformed the city of Pasadena by apologizing on behalf of the police. He said, “Look, during the civil rights movement, U.S. police officers were told to enforce the status quo, but the status quo was wrong. Let me be the first to tell you. I was part of it. And I apologize, we were wrong.” Boy, it just melted the community. So there’s healing in it.

We had an article in the Reconcile newsletter back a few years ago that talks about, not this particular issue, but the power of an apology. Neil Earle wrote that, and he talks about places like Bosnia and the conflict that’s been going on for so many years and different countries that don’t get together — nobody’s stood up to apologize or say let’s resolve this conflict. And so it continues, and people continue to die because nobody will break the cycle of this evil.

MF: So acknowledgment, I guess.

CM: It’s acknowledgment, just acknowledge...

MF: The pain and the history is real.

CM: Yes.

MF: Real and wrong.

CM: Right.

MF: It’s very difficult to have to carry something when the opposing side won’t admit it.

CM: Right. Won’t even admit it.

MF: Is...some kind of emotional thing going.

CM: That’s right. I did not realize that.

MF: It’s a spiritual thing.

CM: It’s a spiritual thing. You know, Jesus Christ came along. He didn’t sin, but he broke that cycle in the sense of providing salvation for us. You think about how all of mankind has been reconciled through Jesus Christ. By the Father through Christ and redeemed by the Holy Spirit — and he broke that cycle. He came and stood in for all mankind and took all the sins of mankind on himself and now we can all be free and let it all go.

MF: There’s a freedom in knowing that we’re safe in Christ.

CM: Right.

MF: There’s a freedom to confess, even to yourself...to recognize your own sins, face them, because it’s safe, because he has created a safe space for us to be able to do that. And that’s what you’re doing with Reconciliation Ministry is bringing people together and helping them find for each other a safe space to be able to engage in this process that does promote healing in a much deeper way than it could otherwise.

CM: It does. And here I am, an African-American who came into, at that time, Radio Church of God, in 1964. We went through a lot of the British Israelism teachings and all of that, which were...of the church, I guess you might say. But at the same time, I have apologized to more church audiences than I ever imagined I would. As an African-American, I was part of the power structure, so I can’t just say I was mistreated because I was black, because whites were mistreated because I was in the power to do so.

MF: As an elder.

CM: As a pastor. As an elder, yes. So therefore I have apologized to audiences on behalf of the whole church and organization that we’re a part of and said, you know, “That never should have happened to you.” It’s amazing that people come up and they hug you and they cry. You think, you had this happen to you 30, 40 years ago, some incident. But it’s still there. “Tthis pastor said this to me and it was mean, and 40 years...”

MF: It doesn’t go away just because it’s 40 years ago — it’s like yesterday.

CM: She said, “And now that a pastor has apologized, it makes me feel so good.” I think that’s part of our job, to let Jesus heal people that way — be used as an instrument in his hands so people can heal.

MF: And who is going to do it if a leader doesn’t?

CM: That’s right, exactly.

MF: Well, Office of Reconciliation but also Spiritual Mediation. How do those fit together, and what’s the difference?

CM: The Office of Reconciliation Ministries is the original name of the ministry, ORM, we had that as our logo. And we inserted Spiritual Mediation to keep it, first of all, from looking like a legal thing that we do, and it’s a legal word as well as a spiritual word. So we want to make the distinction between that, and say we do spiritual mediation because Jesus Christ is our mediator.

MF: Yeah, legal mediation is a different kettle of fish altogether. We’re talking a spiritual mediation.

CM: A spiritual mediation, and so most of our mediation has to do with spiritual stuff. We take out the Bible, we talk about scriptures.

MF: So is the spiritual mediation part of that process where you are getting together to discuss how to get to this, to the reconciliation?

CM: Yes. We even have to mediate sometimes to find out if people will actually come together, and we have to convince people sometimes on this side and then go back to that side and say, “Can we get together? We believe that if you do get together, you’re going to find that it’s easier than you thought it would be.”

MF: So it’s part negotiation.

CM: Almost part negotiation.

MF: Start where people would like to see some change and they’re looking for some help to walk them through it. And so you’re the ambassador.

CM: The liaison. The one who is willing to go over to this side and say, I think we can make a breakthrough, and then go over to this side over here as kind of the mediation process, and try to convince them that it’s not going to be as difficult as you think. It’s going to be a God thing if you can come together and love each other and go together in the future.

MF: And the goal is to get to some kind of reconciliation, if they’re capable of walking through the process. I’m sure you’ve had some situations where it didn’t go anywhere and didn’t work out. But you’ve probably had some very meaningful and positive outcomes as well...

CM: Yes. Speaking of networking out, I had a man, he was a part of our fellowship and eventually he left. He had attended Ambassador College and had been mistreated. He gave many examples and...I was beginning to develop a relationship with him on e-mail back and forth. We’d talk back and forth. And he was getting there — really believing in reconciliation ministry that it would work, because it comes from Jesus Christ. As far as him being willing to take another step and get together with others and sit down and talk it through and work it through, he just gave up. He felt it was just too much. He had much too much baggage, to difficult, it’s been too long ago, it’s not going to work. He just fizzled out. I always leave my door open when people do that. But yeah, sometimes they just don’t...

MF: Does the hurt and maybe the bitterness over that become such a part of you that you don’t really want to let go of it?

CM: Yeah, I think so. I’ve been a pastor for a long time. I think some people seem to nurse and nurture their pain, their hurt. It’s a story that they can tell anybody — what they went through. They seem to never want to let go of that. Some have been apologized to by me and by others, and they just won’t let it go. It’s almost like “this is part of me now.”

MF: I wonder if we all don’t have a little of that in some ways, even with maybe a sickness because sometimes with an illness, that’s the thing that makes people feel sorry for you...

CM: That’s right, give me some attention.

MF: And if you didn’t have that anymore, what would you do? And so you’d really rather it not go away because...

CM: That’s right. We get a little bit of self pity and all of that, so...

MF: I imagine we’re all like that in certain ways and hold onto things...our claim to fame, you know? The thing that happened to us that we don’t want to let go of. But there’s such healing if we can move in a positive direction. Sometimes it just takes some help to see how that could work and how it might work for us.

CM: Right, right.

MF: If I understand the way you work with congregations and with institutions that have asked you to be involved, there’s never any pushiness about it. It’s a “how can we make this work and let’s take the steps, let’s see how you feel and how far you can come and what your expectations are.” A lot of patience must be involved in that process.

CM: That’s right. I’m thinking as you talk about some things I went through in the South, in the ’60s, you know, Governor Wallace was my governor. He had two terms — one in the early ’60s, about ’64 to ’67 and then ’70 to ’74. In Dallas recently there was a pastor who was an aide to Governor Wallace. When Governor Wallace was shot, he repented of his evil...his racism and all the things he had said to people and the names that he had called. He repented. He was wheeled into a room of all African Americans, including the students who he had blocked out of the University of Alabama, and Jesse Jackson was there. He said, “I apologize to you. I’m sincere. I really am sorry about calling you all these bad names. And just please forgive me.” And they did.

He ran for governor later, and I didn’t know this until this man told me, 99 percent of black voters voted for Governor George Wallace. That blew me away. I knew it was large, but 99 percent — they said it’s never happened before in Mississippi and it never will happen again. But this is how much they appreciated the apology — just the apology! He didn’t go back and say, “Well, I wonder how many people did my state troopers kill?” and some were killed. “I wonder how many people were hurt by my administration?” No, he said, “I’m sorry.” And they accepted it, and they voted for him. They started to love Governor George Wallace.

MF: That’s really a remarkable story. I don’t know how many people know how that ended as opposed to...

CM: I didn’t know about the voting percentage, but I did know a lot about Governor Wallace and his stuff because I got out from down there during his administration.

MF: Oh yeah, it was...

CM: When the dogs were being put on people and the water hoses, that’s when I left. The state troopers were not your friends. They had confederate flags on their license plates, you know.

MF: It was frightening to see them coming.

CM: It really was. You were absolutely powerless. Because you had no rights, none. You could cross the line just by mistake — drinking out of the wrong water fountain or going into the wrong restroom, and be killed! That’s the world I lived in. And yet these people down there forgave him because he apologized, and they went on with their lives, and they showed that they were sincere by voting for him.

MF: It shows the power that can come from the process if people are willing to take it. And your ministry is there to be available to those who see something... where they see the need and they’d like to find some reconciliation, and like to be walked through that process in a positive way. And you’re there to help out. Your website is...

CM: It’s www.atimetoreconcile.org. We’d love to have people contact us. And any kind of conflict that people...we’re willing to say “I don’t know” if it’s something that we feel we shouldn’t do, maybe it should be done by a legal staff. But we’re willing to do what we can. Part of our mediation and reconciliation is prayer, is through prayer. And so it’s a spiritual thing.

MF: Well, thank you for the great work you’re doing. And it’s been going on for how many years now?

CM: 15. We’re on our 16th year.

MF: And you’re actually retired now.

CM: That’s what they tell me.

MF: Now you just get to do the same work but not get paid for it.

CM: That’s right. I think there’s a spiritual thing about that.

MF: There must be. It’s a labor of love for sure.

CM: A labor of love. Morgan Freeman said recently, I was watching a movie, to a young lady, he said, “Do what you’re made to do.” In other words, you’re made to do something in life. She asked, “What should I be?” He said, “Do what you want to be.” That’s what I do. I do what I was made to do. I believe. It just comes so naturally, but I know it’s a spiritual thing. It really is something I enjoy.

MF: Well, thanks for the good work that you’re doing, and it’s really good to see you again.

CM: You too, Mike, good to see you and thank you for all your work.

MF: Thanks.